Kamtza and Bar Kamtza revisited : an indictment
Many people know the story of Kamtza and Bar Kamtza in the Talmud (Gittin 55b-56a). Traditionally, it is taught that it was sinat chinam, baseless hatred, as exhibited by these two individuals that lead to the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem. However, if you actually read the text, there is a debate between the Rabbis and R. Zechariah b. Abkulas:
The Rabbis were inclined to offer it in order not to offend the Government. Said R. Zechariah b. Abkulas to them: People will say that blemished animals are offered on the altar. They then proposed to kill Bar Kamza so that he should not go and inform against them, but R. Zechariah b. Abkulas said to them, Is one who makes a blemish on consecrated animals to be put to death?The last word is given to R. Yochanan who utters the following phrase:
אמר רבי יוחנן ענוותנותו של רבי זכריה בן אבקולס החריבה את ביתנו ושרפה את היכלנו והגליתנו מארצנו. Through the scrupulousness of R. Zechariah b. Abkulas our House has been destroyed, our Temple burnt and we ourselves exiled from our land.
posted by e-kvetcher at 11:07 AM
10 Comments:
You should check out the Tosefta. That refrain "avonoteinu . .." is repeated in an entirely different context where Hillel and Shammai disagree, and R' Zechariah is fickle, unwilling to take action.
scrupulousness is not a good translation. Anav means 'humble', I think, but I think it means meek here, afraid to make a stand. SO I agree with CJ.
I always liked to translate 'anvanut' as 'condescension' in the good connotation way, based on the expression 'whenever you see the greatness of G-d, there you see His anvanut' and bringing as proofs "ha-magbihi lashevet, ha-mashpili lirot" and similar verses. Though I'm not sure how that would interact with this story, I don't think the meek translation would work there, nor quite the humility.
OK, can I get my correspondents in Israel or Harvard to please consult with an expert so we can nail this important translation?
Alright, I guess I can ask a professor next week.
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Any conclusions - even when they are the intelligent and important - when they are based on the literal meaning (פשט) of the legend - they causes disaster!
We MUST DECRYPT the literal meaning of the legends of the Talmud!
Kamtza and Bar Kamtza - who are they really???
The answer is here (in Hebrew):
https://barkamtza2007.blogspot.com/ncr
https://barkamtza2007.wordpress.com/
or (with some additions):
http://cafe.themarker.com/post/2999984
The true meaning of the Sinat Chinam concept is explained in the document called
חמישה קטעים על המילה בריון
on this site: goo.gl/2SxSUy
In addition, I offer you a site with examples of a completely absurd reading of texts of Mekoros. These readings are completely distorting the meaning of the MESSAGES which the Authors of the Mekoros have wanted to convey to us - and these examples are only a little drop in the endless sea of worst cases of intentionally wrong transcriptions / interpretations of the Mekoros.
(Among other things, this site offers, for example, the original meaning of the Sinat Chinam concept and of the Biryon concept)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism_of_TALMUD
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